Cultures Are Not
Anyone’s Property
Ariane Mnouchkine in conversation with Joëlle Gayot
Introduction by Nora Armani
C ultural appropriation is a label that has been applied to creations not only
in the performing arts, but also in fashion, food, film, books, and other
forms of cultural manifestation. When is a cultural element appropriated,
and when is it used in a cross-cultural exchange experience enriching both sides
of the cultural spectrum? Who does culture belong to?
In 2018, the devised theatre piece Kanata, by Canadian writer and director Robert
Lepage and the actors of the renowned French company Théâtre du Soleil, whose
subject matter ranged over a two-hundred-year history of First Nations Canadian
native peoples, was shrouded in controversy around issues of cultural appropria-
tion and exclusion. “Kanata,” the Iroquois word for village, gave its name to
Canada. The controversy stemmed from the fact that there were no Native North
Americans in the cast, that none had been consulted while creating the play over
its more than three-year process of creation, and that the history of First Nations
was being told from an exclusively white point of view. Lepage was accused of
cultural appropriation, and whether he had any right to tell a story considered
the exclusive right of its “owners,” namely the Native Canadian populations. A
group of protesters formed of Native and non-Native people wrote an open let-
ter in the Canadian papers, asking to be included in the process. It stated: “The
Indigenous movement has shown in recent years that it is a mistake to erase us
from the public space . . . . We are not invisible and we will not be quiet.” As the
protests surrounding Kanata erupted, one of the North American investors pulled
out, making it impossible for the production to continue. It had been scheduled
to open in Québec City, and then move to Montreal, New York, and Paris. None
of the North American performances took place.
As a result of the protests, on July 19, 2018, in Montreal, Lepage and Ariane
Mnouchkine, director of Théâtre du Soleil, which is based at the Cartoucherie
© 2019 Nora Armani
PAJ 123 (2019), pp. 65–70.
65
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in Paris, agreed to meet with the protestors and discuss the creative process of
the show. In an interview with Lepage by Mélanie Drouère, published in the
program of Kanata—Episode I—The Controversy, which was eventually produced
in Paris, he explains that prior to the start of the actual creation process, there
were trips taken within the First Nations peoples to “immerse oneself into the
yesterday and today of these populations.”
“We spent time in the Canadian West, not only in the tribal territories
in the mountains, but also in the urban centres, such as Vancouver, in
order to better understand the problems in an urban setting. And only
at this time the real creative work or exploration, improvisations, and
writing started, over one to two-week sessions, either in Canada or at
the Cartoucherie.”
When asked about the importance of the identify question, and how central it
was for the creation of Kanata, Lepage responded by saying that it was of utmost
importance and that the French company, composed of Afghans, South Ameri-
cans, Australians, and actors of all types of origins, some of whom are refugees
themselves or those who made the choice of exile, gave their characters a universal
tenor. These actors brought to the performance their own experiences of exile
and of being torn from their lands. By allowing themselves to “play the other,”
as Lepage puts it, they were able to relive the emotions and tell the history of the
other, in this case the Native Canadians. Lepage goes on to describe an incident
during the research period in the Rockies, where the Théâtre du Soleil company
actors took part in a dance workshop, when suddenly the Afghan actors had a
strong emotional reaction since the geography of these mountains reminded
them of their own country.
Part of the agreement of this co-creation was that the international and fully
diverse cast of Théâtre du Soleil was to be used for the new work. (This is the
first time they were directed by someone other than Mnouchkine.) Therefore,
no special auditions were held for Kanata and no new cast members hired. And
since there are no Native North American actors in the current company, it was
natural that other actors—Afghans, Persians, Arabs, Africans, and indigenous
and refugee members of the troupe—would play all the roles, including those
of the Native Americans.
With the cancelation of the play’s trilogy in Montreal as a result of the protests
and the retracted funding, Ariane Mnouchkine and the Théâtre du Soleil actors
created a French production concentrating only on the last part, aptly retitling
it Kanata—Episode I—The Controversy. As part of the Festival d’Automne, it took
place at the Cartoucherie, from December 15, 2018 to February 17, 2019. Fol-
66 PAJ 123
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lowing its unanticipated success, the run was extended through March 31, 2019.
During its run, I was able to attend several performances. The core part of this
version became the controversy itself, addressing the freedom of a French artist,
the character Miranda in the play, who wants to paint the disappearing Native
Canadian girls, and who is prevented from exhibiting her work in public, because
she does not have the permission of the parents. Allegorically, this scene makes
reference to the same prevention Lepage faced when telling the story of the Native
Canadians. According to the actors I spoke with, this condensed segment of the
longer trilogy included minor references to the eliminated first two episodes
through incidents and comments in order to help contextualize the events in
the current and final performed version of the piece.
In this interview with Ariane Mnouchkine, published in Paris in Télérama on
September 18, 2018 (updated September 24) and on the Théâtre du Soleil web-
site, the artist responds to the controversy. The interview has been translated by
Nora Armani.
What does the term “cultural appropriation” mean for you?
This term evokes nothing for me because there can be no appropriation of what
is not and has never been a physical or intellectual property. That is to say, cul-
tures are not anyone’s property. No bounds limit them because, precisely, they
have no known geographical or, especially, temporal boundaries. They are not
isolated, and they have been cross-pollinating since the dawn of civilizations.
No more than a peasant can prevent the wind from blowing a spray of healthy
or noxious seeds sown by his neighbor onto his field, can people, even the most
insular, claim the definitive purity of their culture. Finally, the stories of groups,
hordes, clans, tribes, ethnic groups, peoples, nations cannot be patented, as some
claim, because they all belong to the great history of humanity. This great history
is the territory of artists. Cultures, all cultures, are our sources and, in a way,
they are all sacred. We must drink from these sources studiously, with respect
and gratitude, but we cannot accept to be forbidden to approach them, because
we would then be pushed back into the desert. It would be a frightening intel-
lectual, artistic, and political regression. The theatre has doors and windows.
Theatre tells the entire story of the world.
What has transpired in the history of First Nations that can explain this controversy?
I am not a historian of Canadian colonization, but let us look at history. An
insidious spoliation, turned violent. Endless betrayals. Promises that were never
ARMANI / Cultures Are Not Anyone’s Property 67
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kept. Treaties that were not respected. And, in 1867, at the time of independence,
a genocidal treatment of First Nations. Exclusion and systematic marginalization.
And—in a process that has left the deepest traces—a real assault by the Catholic
Church and the Canadian state on native culture through the elimination of the
involvement both of parents and of the community in the intellectual, cultural,
and spiritual development of native children, implemented through a system of
infamous boarding schools, where a forced, sadistic, abusive, violent, mindless,
unimaginable assimilation of children was practiced. It’s similar to what happened
in Australia with Aboriginal children. This system was still practiced in Canada
until 1996. That is to say, until very recently. So many horrendous things hap-
pened that, despite undeniable efforts in recent years, nothing could be repaired
at the snap of a finger. The legitimate claims of the indigenous people far exceed
this controversy. Moreover—and I wish to say it again—it was not only aimed at
canceling Kanata, but it was also a vindictive movement of thought, advocating
the “return of the baton” rather than the long and difficult path of reconcilia-
tion that the majority of natives go through with determination and resilience.
Are you worried about the turn of events?
I must admit, I am a little. Enclosures are being defined within which identi-
ties that are reduced to themselves alone are cloistered. Is it to better classify
them? Infinitely? On September 22, 1933, at the initiative of Joseph Goebbels
and through the creation of the Reich Chamber of Culture, Jewish artists were
excluded from the cultural arena and could only appear in productions intended
for Jewish audiences. Do not panic, I am not accusing anyone of being a Nazi, in
this context, but when one starts to examine my theatre company’s ethnic com-
position, I cannot but recall what the Nazis did. I sound the alarm bell. Beware
of certain similarities of thought or methods. Even inadvertent ones.
How should artists react to this? Are you calling for a mobilization?
The first censor is our fear. Being accused of racism is very scary, and our accusers
know that. They use it. But as long as we are concerned, in all conscience, we know
that we are not racist and that our work, the diversity of the group with which
we have been creating works for so many years, is not. In short, our whole life
proves the opposite. We must refuse, in the light of the ethnic composition of this
cast, even before anyone has seen our production, to be labelled spoliators and
racists, and consequently criminals. We all have eyes, ears, memories, legends,
all of which are interrelated in many ways. We are not “only” French or “purely”
white. Or “only” indigenous. Should we bow our heads to an ancestral curse, of
biblical dimensions, that continues to plague us from generation to generation?
68 PAJ 123
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Are we, forever, for centuries, racists and colonialists, or are we human beings,
carriers of universality: Blacks, Jews, Arabs, Khmers, Indians, Afghans, and
natives, whose epic stories we sometimes want to tell, and who, like us, as the
basis of their cultural particularities, carry within them the universal human
being? And after all, who benefits from tearing society apart in this way? How
will this interminable tribalization help dismantle the savage capitalism that is
ruining our planet? How will it stop the greed of multinationals? What is the
purpose behind it? How will it give us the meaning and the love of the com-
mon good? Why do some ideologues try to fool our youth by taking advantage
of their idealism, their generosity and their thirst for solidarity and humanity?
Who are these ideologues?
I do not have to name them. By their answers and their attacks, I believe, they
will show that they have recognized themselves.
Is it not a discourse that falls on deaf ears?
It’s worse than that. It is a trial, where every word of the defense is inverted and
added to the indictment of the self-appointed prosecutors. It becomes necessary
to constantly navigate between forbidden words that are more and more numer-
ous. How to speak sincerely, and with confidence, when each word can become,
at the whim of the interlocutor, an incriminating clue, revealing our ignominy?
Under the scrutiny of such commissioners, how can one escape artificial language,
clichés, hypocrisy, and finally the inevitable lie?
Is it possible to avoid guilt?
Once all paths of material, legislative, and symbolic reparations have been made
and these repairs, always imperfect and insufficient, have been definitively
obtained, we must recognize that we may still be guilty of many things, but not
of everything, not all the time and not forever. The path is identical for those who
are—or who think of themselves as—the victims, because it may be somewhat
indecent to appropriate too much of the suffering of an ancestor or make it one’s
own. The grandchildren of deportees did not suffer what their grandparents or
great-great-grandparents suffered. I am one of these grandchildren, and as such I
cannot build eternal bitterness and hatred on the fate of my ancestors. Hatred and
bitterness that my grandparents who died in Auschwitz would not have wanted
to leave me with. They loved me too much, I’m sure, to want to inflict the pain of
such hatred on me. I cannot boast of their legacy and through it hold the whole
world guilty and responsible, and forbid a young German actress, innocent of
ARMANI / Cultures Are Not Anyone’s Property 69
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what her great-grandfather could have done to mine, from playing Anne Frank,
when she has the talent and the moral stamina to do it.
How do you feel today?
At a meeting in Montreal back in July, Robert and I sought out the indigenous
artists who had expressed their incomprehension, not to say their disapproval,
at the lack of native actors and actresses in the Kanata cast. We had to remind
them again and again that this play had been rehearsed and produced in France,
with actors of very diverse origins, first of all refugees, then residents in France,
then most of them naturalized as French in recent years. Many of the artists who
met with us that night had heard vaguely about the Théâtre du Soleil but were
unaware of its principles and its way of operation. The meeting was held in a
respectful atmosphere, on both sides, and I thought we were moving forward on
the difficult path of understanding and reconciliation.
This meeting, which I will remember all my life with a very special emotion,
lasted more than five and a half hours, but we would have needed, and we will
still need, more time. We will take this time. We promised. But, the next morn-
ing, all those who did not want this meeting to conclude with an agreement,
and who had not attended it, attacked us. And, I admit it today, that Robert and
I have been plagued by accusations of all kinds resulting from the amount of
intimidation and misinformation on certain forums or blogs and springing up on
social networks where a multitude of anonymous people are involved. After the
announcement of the cancelation [of the show in Canada], many of the native
artists we had met with that night did not hide their disappointment and even
their disapproval of this outcome, which they had not asked for. So we pulled
ourselves together and decided that the best answer to the attacks would be to
present the first episode of the production ourselves.
Will you be the co-author of this episode of the play with Robert Lepage?
No. But I’m the co-author of the manifesto explaining the decision to present it.
This interview was previously published by Jonathan Kalb on his blog, TheaterMatters.
NORA ARMANI is an actor, director, and filmmaker with many interna-
tional stage and film credits in multiple languages. She is currently based
in New York and is pursuing an MA in theatre at Hunter College. Armani
also holds her M.Sc. in Sociology (ECON) from the London School of
Economics. www.noraarmani.net
70 PAJ 123
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